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122758-to-the-folks-pushing-up-decor-prices
Content ---- I had this problem on the Shadowcaster, especially in the trauma unit. Medical stations go for multiple plat; they're a fairly rare drop from the medical station housing challenge. I thought it was too expensive for me alone. Luckily, the Shadowcaster is the guild RP plot, so a bunch of people started chain-running the challenge with me and we got our medical stations. :D Let me know if you need help or need something. We maintain a tab in our bank for nothing but dyes, fabkits, costumes, and decor. I'll totally run something with you and pass on the item you need if you really need it. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Unfortunately, I think Esper's not talking about a pure market-forces kind of thing. I think we're talking about EVE-style resellers. That can happen (it's why those people have so much money; buy something cheap and re-sell it for a markup, you get free money). I've done that before, but not to that extent. Yes, nobody will buy them at whatever price they may hit, but they may sell them slightly below that. And if a person buys them all at 1p, then resells even one at 10p, he's got nine that he can sell at any price for pure profit. They're a bit of a rarity in Wildstar, the AH players, but they do exist. | |} ---- ---- It will only stay that high so long as people pay that price; supply and demand. If it's hovering there, people are paying, which means it's far from "beyond access," and only out of your personal grasp. There's a lot I'd like to have, too, but do I expect those things to have their prices cut here and now just so "big, important me" can get my hands on them? Nope. I go work for them and put time into finding better prices. If you don't have time for those avenues, it's retail price for you. I'm not a fan of price gougers, myself, but they're a natural part of any economy and really should be expected. Whining that you cannot afford their wares falls upon ignorant ears; these people only care for coin. | |} ---- Well let me start by writing that I view price-gouging as any attempt to buy-out all instances of an item with the intent to resell at an outrageous mark-up (what counts as outrageous is obviously up for debate; I would start with 300% of original price, and beyond). Therefore, luxury items or not, this is price-gouging where I come from. I'm talking about MMOs here... not wall street. :P As for the rest of your post, it's a sound theory and I'm sure would work if put into practice. The problems though are several: 1. I don't have the time or desire to mindlessly farm one decor item just to try to punch down another player's mark-up 2. Maintenance Platforms should never be above 1p, so even if I dropped my price way under the gouger's, I wouldn't feel comfortable making more than the item is really worth. Consequently I'd be wasting my time\ 3. I don't even know where to find them, though they seem to be semi-common I also think that there's an underlying assumption about the gouger in your post, mainly that this person is going to act on threats to their income. In my experience, the top gougers in MMOs have so much gd money they really don't care about risk and will just do everything they can to turn a heavy profit. That's the fun for them. | |} ---- This is exactly what I mean. It's not something that's happened much with Wildstar up to this point, thankfully, but when it does happen it hurts. To be exact, we had somewhere around 12-15 Platforms on the auction this weekend, average price. 1p, low-ball around 70g. Every one of these items was bought within a 12 hour window, and the next morning a handful were up at 20p. I've also done the resell thing, I don't consider that gouging. If I spot a Lilypad that I know is rare and regularly sells around 2p, and is up for 30g, I might just buy it and resell at normal price. I might also tell the WSRP channel so folks know the deal is there. What I won't do, is buy all instances of an item and repost them at 2000% their initial average price, and then continue to buy new item posts before others can. This is, to me, not cool. | |} ---- Just so we're clear, it isn't technically price gouging when it's applied to a luxury good. Price gouging assumes you HAVE to have something, therefore the seller takes advantage of the infinite demand of the product. What's going on is technically called price fixing, when the retail across the board is raised (even if it's just by one person), leaving those who want to buy the item with no other options. Otherwise, both of those are truly issues, though I will say that you could technically sell the items after grinding them at something like 2p. Maybe it's higher than it's worth, but think of it as a finder's fee for being robin hood. This assumes it's enough of an issue to warrant direct action, though. | |} ---- At what point do you become PriceMaster, deciding how much each item in game should go for? If a single person buys a platform at 18p, it makes you wrong. These items are worth whatever the player is willing to pay. If there are people willing to pay 18p for a platform, that automatically makes that item worth 18p. How much things should cost is not up to you. This is just a "sucks for you/wait it out" situation, whining about it won't change a damn thing. | |} ---- I really wish hitting the back button on my mouse wouldn't fubar my entire reply... screw forums... Both your replies to my post are rude and misinformed. You assume I'm trying to get a price reduction for myself when I've already stated I don't need this item and my build is almost finished. You seem to enjoy making me out to be some greedy, lazy whiner who just wants the economy to suit him at a turn. Do you even read, bro? This is about an item being hard-gouged for the last 5 days, and what that means to the building community. The OP is a request, to which I added several times "please". Go troll somewhere else, Old Man. | |} ---- ---- The essential thing here is that people in MMOs use the term "price gouging" frequently to describe someone forcing up a price, and I think we all know what is meant by that. :P I don't need real world economics to get the point across here. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- At what point does this become a troll post? The point where you decide how much everything in game should cost or the point where you refuse to see an item hanging at a certain price for nearly a week is clearly being bought or it wouldn't still be that pricey? At what point is your post less misinformed than my own? You assume that everything should cost a certain amount, then spread your own misinformation and claim it the fault of other. Saying, "Too bad, go farm more," isn't trolling, it's exactly what you need to do. Edited February 20, 2015 by CRB_Sunshine Insulting another member of the community | |} ---- All items in Wildstar are luxury items. Every single one. I don't understand how this argument has any relevance, other than insisting on absolute dependence on real world terminology for an in-game concept. As I've mentioned, lots of players use the word "gouge" in this context to mean driving prices up, and I'm pretty sure most if not all of you posting here understood my meaning. So can we let this part drop? :P I called one person a troll— one. Don't abstract my words away from their intended meaning. Old Man Tek was being rude and misrepresenting my argument as self-interest. That is not the case, and to me is OBVIOUSLY not the case, hence I called him a troll. I presume to assign a fair market value because I check multiple times a day. I've been looking in on this particular item since it was released with drop 4. I've watched its price shift, but it never goes far above or below 1p, until now. So I'm not arbitrarily pulling out of my ass what I think is proper— I'm basing it on the actual numbers I've personally watched for the last few weeks. I also know, though I can't say where exactly the item drops, that it is common/semi-common, because the market sees a handful of them (usually 4-8) posted a day. Which means it's obviously not Digital Marauder Netting or Standing Viewscreen Display, which show up infrequently and are most often priced around 3-5p. | |} ---- That's a great idea. You can't make Maintenance Platforms. | |} ---- So it's research-based presumption! On whose behalf do you presume to dictate the price of this item, in which you have stated an absence of interest? | |} ---- Making a point of what I feel is a fair price (the price the item has been going for, generally, since its release) is not imposing my view on the game creators as a must-do. So what is your point? What are you trying to prove here, Shendorion? Please note that I did not write this post asking the devs to step in and control prices according to my beliefs. What I asked is for gougers to stop gouging decor because it hurts the community of builders, and at the end I grumbled about how I wish there was a ceiling on decor. Is this last part troubling you, and is it what's caused you to now heckle me? Item was going at 1p... item is now going at app. 18p. I feel this is unfair and I've asked people to stop pushing prices this high. What is your problem here, exactly? | |} ---- You're using the term "fair market value" when it applies to luxury goods. But what is "fair"? That's a subjective term. How is the price of a housing decor item any different to the price of black dye, or any other luxury item that fetches a premium price? You've been watching the market. So it seems has the person who is now sitting on a skyscraper of maintenance platforms. And even if we could all agree that the price isn't "fair", how do you propose to regulate prices anyway? A cap on player wealth? Prevent anything bought from the AH being relisted on it? | |} ---- Did I propose to regulate anything? I think some of the free market enthusiasts are getting a little too "real" in this thread. The OP was a simple request that the gouger(s) stop doing what they're doing to such an extreme. If they don't like that then good for them. If you don't like it, good for you. Fair is indeed a subjective term. I think a 2000% mark-up on an item, specifically when the person(s) involved are buying out the competition and resposting, is unfair. You disagree? Good for you. The point of thread is not to establish that my conception of fair is objective or right; it's simply to ask the people doing what I think is unfair, to stop doing it. That's all. | |} ---- ---- Propose, wish - we could parse words if you like, but if we do I'd like to revisit the whole "price gouging" thing. | |} ---- ---- Go back to the title of the thread: this is for the players involved. I didn't write a request to Carbine asking them to make a gameplay change and so I'm not sure it's reasonable that some people are arguing with me like it's the case. The body of the OP and the title set the reason for its existence, not the final sentence of lament. At least where I come from. I have no problem revisiting the price gouging thing, within the current context. I assume now you think I'm being arbitrary when I redefined 'price gouging' for the purpose of the thread and my argument. Am I right? | |} ---- ---- ---- Curse you, and your burbling wellspring of useful information! You know what I wish? I wish those Protostar balconies came from shiphands. I'd love to grind out a dozen of 'em and install a catwalk on my hangar bay, and the going rate is way outside of my comfort zone. | |} ---- I get what you're saying but it's not like I decided "I like this word, I'm going to use it how I want", which would be terrible, yes. In my experience, 'gouge' is a common gamer term for exploiting the market to force prices up. Whatever inaccuracies about its real world application may come with that (mis)use of the word, I've taken to using it in the same way. Now, judging from the earlier responses I got, and in particular what Vic wrote, I assumed that people reading this thread got the gist of what I was writing, and so didn't see a big deal. As long as people are able to apprehend the reasons for the thread, its main point, and they argue with that, all is well. In this case I don't think the specific term is really that important because this was never a thread for the designers and wasn't meant to convince anyone that I'm RIGHT. It was just a "come on guys" type of thing. As far as the criminal implications of the actual word 'gouging', I wasn't trying to be rhetorical. I can't be any plainer on that point. If the desire of some folks here is to argue free market in WS, another thread would be needed. I apologize if that one sentence expressing a desire for a cap read as bait to you guys but I have to say again that given the body of the thread and the title, it's a little unreasonable to focus only on the last thing I wrote. I sincerely have no desire to argue about whether this will correct itself, or be corrected. It should have ended with the first few posts but I over-invest when people get under my skin. | |} ---- I missed that part. That is certainly a reason for the price to go up, lack of ready supply. So, farm shiphands, get them as drops. The method of acquisition isn't exactly the point. I am not an arbitrage trader. I simply recognize it for the activity that it is. It's a high information, medium to high risk, high reward market activity. It requires knowing the products available, their sourcing, and their desireability. If you inflate the price too high, people will do without -- we've done without maintenance platforms for a long time. Then you have inventory that's not moving and you've already got sunk investment. Anyhow, carry on. This stuff goes on in every MMO with a free market auction house or exchange. It was rather huge in GW2 as their trading post had lots of real time market information available on the web in aggregate format that makes this sort of thing easier to track (the high information part). | |} ---- ---- Right, so I go spend an hour farming a couple platforms and either participate in driving the price up by going above the former average, or feed the player who drove prices up in the first place by giving them more stock. :P I honestly don't buy the argument that the people doing this are going to follow smart market practice. Fake money in a video game does not carry the same weight or consequence as real money, and it follows that players therefore won't necessarily take the same precautions or follow most efficient practices. Maybe the person doing this is just a d-bag... is that so beyond the realm of possibility? This is why I went with an appeal in the OP. I don't know their reasons. | |} ---- That sums it up from my perspective. Yes, I felt badgered and misunderstood, and someone who feels mobbed will be paranoid. :P I'll be more careful with the word 'gouging' in the future. I certainly didn't mean anything related to luxury goods (I tried to detail precisely what I meant in the second paragraph of my first post to ensure clarity). And I do wish Carbine would put caps on decor prices. But as you've pointed out, it was wishful thinking, not something I'd actually ask or argue for— it's simply not important enough and I have no idea what the time costs would be. | |} ---- Mmm... you're going to invite more criticism like what you've already faced with that statement. The reason why people were critical of your "wishful" statement was because they disagree with the notion that there should be regulation in a free market luxury economy; not because of importance or time constraints. And for the most part, I agree with those other posters (though perhaps not always with their tones). I know you don't want to be embroiled in a further derailed discussion on free market economies, but I just wanted to point out that this statement is probably going to ruffle feathers and reignite criticisms surrounding the (implied or outright) suggestion that there be any kind of limit (i.e: regulation) at all. Unfortunately, I agree with everyone saying that the reality of the situation is that this needs to be worked out on its own. As soon as there is no one willing to pay the ridiculous prices, the seller will be forced to either lower the price or double down. Otherwise they'll just have an inventory full of useless crap and a burning hole in their pocket. And yes, this involves patience and waiting. And I won't deny that it can suck. But there's simply nothing else that can be done, aside from your current attempt at making a plea to those players who participate in the fixing. There is also no real scarcity problem with the Maintenance Platforms -- my recommendation is to grab a bunch of people and roll through Vet Shiphands. Make it an event, do a public raffle for the drops. Have fun with it. In the end it's a game, and although it (and other people/players) can be frustrating, try to make things fun for yourself and your friends despite the haters. | |} ---- Or you could write a post asking people to consider a different point of view. :P I'm very discouraged by the attitude around here that writing a request is somehow pointless or bad. Where does this come from? The point of the thread was fulfilled by its very existence and therefore there was never a need to criticize or defend it to the degree its had. So weird. As far as ruffling feathers, I was ruffling feathers the moment I asked someone making easy money to stop making easy money. If people want to engage in a calm debate about the positives and negatives of an actual cap on decor, I'm up for that, sure. What I'm not up for is poor social skills and/or people telling me I have an opinion that isn't fact (no shit?). ;) | |} ---- ---- I'm not sure what your suggestion of "write a post asking people to consider a different point of view" is supposed to mean. I also think you took one sentence out of everything I wrote somewhat out of context. I detailed my explanation and as far as the free market analysts here go, I pretty much agree with them. Even if that wasn't what you originally wanted the thread to be about. From what I gathered in your OP, you were asking players to not jack up prices voluntarily -- perhaps making an appeal to emotion or something. This is a request of individual human beings who have their own reasons and motivations for doing what they do. Whether or not anyone thinks that this specific request is reasonable is up for debate and can be (has been) rejected. I've made an effort not to pass judgment here in terms of whether or not the act of making a request of individual players (or a collective, if that were the case) is reasonable or not. In this, you could say that I have zero problems with players writing requests and I've certainly not said that it was either "pointless or bad." Frankly, I don't think that anyone here has said that either. The misunderstanding here is yours, IMO. Readers: Requesting that Carbine regulate the economy is a bad idea. Esper: Why do people think that writing requests is pointless or bad? The respondents are not saying "requests are bad" but they are rejecting the specific requests presented. This is an opinion, and a popular one amongst the people in this thread. I think you may have misinterpreted my initial wall of text. The misunderstanding was not exclusively on the part of your respondents, but also yourself. While the reason why things devolved the way they did is likely related back to many people misinterpreting your OP, as the conversation shifted in tone and content, you also made some missteps and didn't listen to what others were saying; most likely because you felt attacked. But I am by no means discounting what other people say exclusively because you felt as though you were being attacked, and I don't think it's fair to say that the content of a message can be totally ignored because of the tone of the speaker(s). I'm sorry that you feel that everyone here is attacking you because you made a request. I would counter with the fact that they are not rejecting the act of making requests per se, but rather the specific request being made here. And I would also point out that your feelings of being overwhelmed or attacked does not negate what others have to say, even if it changes the topic from what you originally meant it to be. Their misunderstandings of your initial post and your feelings of being dogpiled don't automatically make them "wrong." Conversations evolve, and I was only trying to point out to both sides that I saw people ignoring/missing what others were saying due to miscommunication. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I bet someone out there would sell chocolate-covered shit to an underdeveloped child. Congrats for you and them on maximizing your profits, it's an admirable thing when you can squeeze the most possible money out of the richest players who are willing and able to be overcharged. | |} ---- ----